I was sad to note that the classic view that isavailable in Vista is not available win 7. This kind of thinking has slowed the adoption of Office 2007 for the same reason. The loss of productivity and training issues in a large company are huge. If you force people to do a cut over switch they will avoid upgrading to avoid the pain.If the newer interface is better people we gravitate to it over time...or they won't depending on their inclination. While we are toy users, "ooh, neat new toy to play with" many of our users are toaster users who see these as appliances to get their job done. Many have finally learned enough to do what they have to do, and we go change it on them with the promise of bright and shiney, they are not impressed, but anxious.When MS was trying to eat WordPerfect's lunch, they made it easy for people to switch. They provided help in the form of "if you kinow how to do something in WordPerfect, here is how you do it in Word". Unfortunately, they no longer need to do that for an outside competitor, but have not used that model to migrate from their own older version.I tell you truly, when the choice is switching our company to a new version that will require extensive retraining, help desk hit andcrankey users, or kicking the can down the road because the existing version works fine, which one do you think we'll choose? MS should be doing what it can to make it easy to switch, and things like classic view minimise the support issues and make it easier to justify the switch to upper management.

Don - Seriously... The look has, indeed changed, but it's still Windows. the start button may no longer say START on it like it has for the past, but it still does pretty much the same thing. The system tray is still in the same place. The main difference is all your extra icons don't spread out to the left like they did in times past - they now occupy a small pop up box that's consistent with the preview bubbles on active icons. Where's the need for extensive training? I don't get it. Granted, there are people who are NOT technically hip out there, but those people are likely to only need to be shown where their frequently used programs are - email, Office, IE, etc... They're not going to need to know how to do anything truly advanced to the core end of the OS - like how to change an IP address, or for that matter how to connect to a network. That's the job of the IT department. No? WordPerfect lost out because it was anything BUT easy to use. It used arcane key combinations to get anything done that were anything BUT standard. In a time when F1 already was pretty much established as THE key for loading the app's help file, WordPerfect 5.1 used F7 or some such. And of course, the menu bar was hidden by default (I suppose so you'd have more room to type)... Their early Windows app - WP for Windows 6 - also was a bloated crash prone mess. They pretty much gave away the market as much as Microsoft took it. So which is it? Is it the IT department's of the world who are afraid of learning something new? Or do they just consider their users to have an IQ somewherejust aboveroom temperature? Help me out here. Please. I see posts just like yours here every single day and I scratch my head and wonder just what is so...unfathomably complex about the new menu that would require sending all employees to a special 3 week seminar on how to operate Windows 7? I can see maybe the IT guys who need to install, configure and set things up for end users needing a bit of training but seriously... Drop the icons the end users need on the desktop and they should be able to figure it out.

Don - Seriously... The look has, indeed changed, but it's still Windows. the start button may no longer say START on it like it has for the past, but it still does pretty much the same thing. The system tray is still in the same place. The main difference is all your extra icons don't spread out to the left like they did in times past - they now occupy a small pop up box that's consistent with the preview bubbles on active icons. Where's the need for extensive training? I don't get it. Granted, there are people who are NOT technically hip out there, but those people are likely to only need to be shown where their frequently used programs are - email, Office, IE, etc... They're not going to need to know how to do anything truly advanced to the core end of the OS - like how to change an IP address, or for that matter how to connect to a network. That's the job of the IT department. No? WordPerfect lost out because it was anything BUT easy to use. It used arcane key combinations to get anything done that were anything BUT standard. In a time when F1 already was pretty much established as THE key for loading the app's help file, WordPerfect 5.1 used F7 or some such. And of course, the menu bar was hidden by default (I suppose so you'd have more room to type)... Their early Windows app - WP for Windows 6 - also was a bloated crash prone mess. They pretty much gave away the market as much as Microsoft took it. So which is it? Is it the IT department's of the world who are afraid of learning something new? Or do they just consider their users to have an IQ somewherejust aboveroom temperature? Help me out here. Please. I see posts just like yours here every single day and I scratch my head and wonder just what is so...unfathomably complex about the new menu that would require sending all employees to a special 3 week seminar on how to operate Windows 7? I can see maybe the IT guys who need to install, configure and set things up for end users needing a bit of training but seriously... Drop the icons the end users need on the desktop and they should be able to figure it out. good post.

will require extensive retraining Don,Yeah, I guess we should all go back to punch cards, paper tape, DOS commands, and 8 inch diskettes. While we are at it, let's bring back typing pools and selectric typewriters.Let's go a step further and bring back buggy-whip manufacturers.Change is all around us. Yes, there will be an adjustment and a learning curve. But, the result will be a better, more productive user. Change management? Lack of it is why a lot of companies fail to adapt and move forward.Rather than continue to fight this and piss and moan, make it a positive and get ahead of the curve. Let users know that the new environment is better (which it is). By continuing to spread the negative, you may be successful in making your co-workers believe what you are saying.Be an agent for change! Extensive retraining? Only if you make it so...Doc (inhardware and software since 1971. Started on a 360/20 and 1401)

will require extensive retraining Yeah, I guess we should all go back to punch cards, paper tape, DOS commands, and 8 inch diskettes. While we are at it, let's bring back typing pools and selectric typewriters.Let's go a step further and bring back buggy-whip manufacturers.Change is all around us. Yes, there will be an adjustment and a learning curve. But, the result will be a better, more productive user. Change management? Lack of it is why a lot of companies fail to adapt and move forward.Rather than continue to fight this and piss and moan, make it a positive and get ahead of the curve. Let users know that the new environment is better (which it is). By continuing to spread the negative, you may be successful in making your co-workers believe what you are saying.Be an agent for change!Doc (inhardware and software since 1971. Started on a 360/20 and 1401) Don't knock selectrics, they made millions on the hands of underpaid minions, granted you couldn't take one to starbucks but they were harder to steal. No OS to learn, they sounded impressive and they were built like a brick...

Actually, there is still a use for selectrics today. Just ask Dan Rather...<G>Doc

Sorry....I agree with Don. Doesn't anyone remember the C.RA.P. we had to go through when the GUI changed between Win 3.11 & Win 95?? It was a freaking nightmare for end users & IT staff. Same thing here. After 14 years of knowing how to get to apps & settings, MS decides on changing everything. My question is WHY? So we all re-learn. This means downtime for all the freaking bean counters who don't even want to spend more that $600 on cheap A$$ workstations. Wake up & Smell the coffee (JAVA)!

My proposal would be a downloadable app if you want to have the classical view back.

I agree with Don also.I was there when Windows 95 came out. I used it enthusiasticly but my company never adopted it. By the time they upgraded, it was to NT 4.The rest of you don't appreciate the variety of end userswho have to be supported, and the inertia of the corporate mentality.Companies whose main business is information technology might make the switch without much effort. But the rest will have a lot of ignorant end users to deal with.Yes, there will be a learning curve.

Just out of curiosity...What is so different about the classic theme that is in Windows 7 that irritates you all so much?

d - From the similar posts I've seen, most of them want the old style fly-out menu system as seen on Win 9x - XP. Personally... It doesn't bother me a bit. If it gets too long - there's the quick and elegant way to get to ANY app - namely the search box. For what it's worth - most of my commonly used apps already live on the task bar as a pinned app or on the desktop in the rare case I can't pin the app to the task bar.@ BK6 - Yes, I remember the "trauma" of switching from Windows 3.11 to 95. It lasted all of maybe... 10 minutes. I could be wrong. It might have only been 8... I didn't time it and it's been a long time since I switched. Either way, it wasn't THAT painful. Sure, there was a learning curve. But in the end - it was EASIER to use the 9x menu structure than it was to use Program Manager. As far as changes go - these happen with EVERY new version of Windows. It happened with 98, ME, NT 4, Win 2000, XP, Vista and now 7. The tragedy of it all.. You have to learn something new. There is ONE guaranteed constant in this universe - CHANGE HAPPENS.For what it's worth, Win 7 is LESS of a change than the transition between 3.1x and 95. The start button is in the same place. The task bar is pretty much the task bar - granted, there's a few things to learn on it. The control panel's a bit different, but it's not like it can't be figured out quickly enough. @ bnborg - Yep... There will always be a few out there who have to be dragged, kicking and screaming into the new millenium... <sigh>

I strongly agree with DonWood, one of my greatest pet peeves is the control panel, I have always used the classic view where I could easily locate, alphabetically, what ever setting I wanted to change, now I have to hunt and search for settings that are identical to their predecessors, but for what ever reason are renamed. for instance Add/Remove Programs is now Programs and Features, this effectively bumps it down to the middle of the window away from where it has been for years. I just brushed it off when Vista came out, thinking this is now going to be the norm, but now more of the control panel items names are being changed. To be honest I could care less if the start button looks a little different but when things are needlessly changed that make the OS less intuitive that is where I draw the line. Why Microsoft? Why take time to change something that was never a problem, and make it worse. why not fix something worth fixing? Like the fact that Photo Viewer still doesn't display animated gifs properly. Don't get me wrong there are many good improvement in 7, for instance I love the new taskbar, that was a long needed improvement, but apparently some of the bumbling fools who worked on Vista are still employed because Microsoft is still missing the basics. Bottom line is Microsoft most likely won't even care because they have think they'll always have a monopoly no matter what they do.

egads - 1.) Yeah.. That's why CMD is still a part of Windows 7. So what's that gotto do with search?2.) Nah... There'll always be a need for IT people... Even the folks in Star Trek have IT people of a sort. Installing an OS is one thing - fixing it when something blows chunks is quite another. As long as there's a computer out there that isn't able to fix itself, there will always be a need.Hmmm Liver.. Yeah.. I see your point. Gag is my opinion as well. Our opinion on whether or not the market should offer it or not doesn't really matter. It's just that the liver's been pulled from the market entirely. Doesn't affect me one way or the other.

egads - 1.) Keystrokes will be around and will never quite go out of style - at least not until they get voice recognition to be 100% flawless. And even then, there are times when they're still prefered - like entering passwords in such a way that you don't give it away to everybody in the room.2.) Of course IT people are "happy" when a system blows up. That means they get to earn their keep. So is your mechanic when the water pump on your car decides to spring a leak. Or the headgasket blows out... The dollar signs pop into their eyes too. Same with your Doctor when you get sick and show up in his office. Ruptured appendix? OH YEAH! Quad bypass? CHA CHING! Don't make it sound like it's such a scummy thing. Without things failing every so often - even with ourselves - there wouldn't be much of anything to do and we wouldn't have an economy of any sort.2a.) No.. But the less skilled ones do hire someone - be it Best Buy's Geek Squad, the local computer shop, or their friendly neighborhood computer geek. 3.) Personally, in some ways, yeah.. I suppose I am a bit happy about it being gone. You may not have seen some of the start menus nightmares some of my clients have built up, spreading out over 4 - 5 columns, completely disorganized, totally covering the entire screen and random depending on when stuff got installed and you're quickly trying to find one app amongst all the kludge. Sorting it of course, isn't an option. The client might have epic fits if you did. The point I was trying to make - is that it's gone - and given we're at the RC stage - it's NOT coming back. This IS what Windows 7 is going to be - and it's not changing. All the begging, whining, gnashing of teeth and the prerequisite moaning will not change that.I also detect a serious hint of fear in some of these posts - where these guys threaten to stick with XP because this, that and the other has changed and how the poor, computer phobic nitwits they personally shepard over at their company can't possibly ever get the hang of anything new and how it's the end of the world as we know it because it's so different... Personally, I find it's overly melodramatic - in a really B movie kind of way. Let's be realistic - Windows 7 is still Windows. Once you get past the task bar and start menu, things still work pretty much on the same paradigm. You click an icon, a program launches. You do whatever you do with the app and you close it in exactly the same way you did under XP - usually by the big red X in the upper right corner. The average corporate end user isn't going to be poking around the Control Panel much except to maybe change the desktop, color scheme, screen saver and maybe the screen resolution. They shouldn't be mucking about with networking and the like - that's the job of the IT department. And who should happen to be complaining? The guys in IT.

Hello,what's up with you both? Are you after the same girl, or what?If asked for the best solution in that "start menu" matter, I must confess that I find none. The highly revered "classical menu" shows, in my XP configurations, around four pages of programs (more than the screen holds) - now try to find anything without tearing eyes. The up-to-day variant of showing a list that scrolls (with enough apps installed) down to the earth's core isn't such a splendid idea, too. Other solutions like grouping the menu entries or simply typing in the program name at the orb have the disadvantage that you must have a very clear idea of what you're searching for. That's not always the case: What was this "little helper's" name I used a week ago?So my only possible conclusion is: We must live with the instruments they give us. It would be undoubtedly nice if some UI designer invented the philosopher's stone to satisfy all needs. But I doubt we will see that in the nearer future.Mob. AMD64 3000+, 1 G RAM, Mob. ATIRadeon9700, 20x DVDRW, C:XPSP3 (55G),D:WIN7 (25G),F:DATA (250G)

This is another case of "Do as I say and not as I do" from Microsoft.From the MSDN Windows User Experience Interaction Guidelines: "To ensure that your program's functionality is easily available to the widest range of users, including those who have disabilities and impairments, all interactive user interface (UI) elements must be keyboard accessible. Generally, this means that the most commonly used UI elements are accessible using a single access key or key combination, whereas less frequently used elements may require additional tab or arrow key navigation. For these users, comprehensiveness is more important than consistency. To ensure that your program's functionality is efficient for experienced users, commonly used UI elements should also have shortcut keys for direct keyboard access. Experienced users often have a strong preference for using the keyboard, because keyboard-based commands can be entered more quickly and don't require removing their hands from the keyboard. For these users, efficiency and consistency are crucial; comprehensiveness is important only for the most frequently used commands."Note: I added the bold emphasis.

Sanmartin,I do like your take on the discussion, however I believe a well thought out consistent , option rich, interface would be the best solution. I am opposed to abrupt changes and needless modifications. As I already mentioned things like renaming system settings that have been consistent since before Windows 98 can only serve to hurt the ease of transitioning from one OS version to another.

So my only possible conclusion is: We must live with the instruments they give us. Sanmartin, Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:05 AM ... or emulate the classic start menu.